BHC Pic of the Week Nr. 246 (Tribute to David Backlin)

Mystery Bridge Nr. 197

The second of the two Snyder Park Bridges is also a mystery bridge. Yet the question when taking a look at the two is which one is the more glamorous of them? After looking at the unique Stone Arch Bridge in our last Mystery Bridge post, we have this one: The Snyder Memorial Bridge.

Spanning Buck Creek on Snyder Park Road, the Memorial Bridge is a combination of iron and steel bridge that has a little European flavor to it. According to Nathan Holth, the bridge was built in 1897 but it is unknown who had built it. It features an arch span that is half pony and half deck. It also has a Pratt pony truss span whose endposts are vertical and have ornamental castings.

Looking at it from an expatriate’s point of view, these have the features of a typical truss and arch bridge built in Germany. As reference, one needs not to look further than the Levansau Arch Bridge in Kiel in Schleswig-Holstein. Built in 1894, it was one of two bridges built by Hermann Muthesius over the Baltic-North Sea Canal, yet when it was built, it featured a combination through truss with Howe features, plus an arch span that was half pony-half deck. Its portal bracings were more ornate than this one at Snyder Park- as it featured brick arch portals with decorative features. A postcard of the bridge can be found here:

In 1952, the bridge was stripped down to the arches, eliminating the portals and the trusses. The bridge is still serving traffic, but its replacement is just around the corner and the structure is expected to be torn down by 2028.

Going back to the Snyder Memorial Bridge, the design of the bridge is definitely one that is typical of European bridges and like the truss bridges in the States, they too are becoming rare to find. What is known are the bridge railings that are outside the trusses and carry a wooden pedestrian path. These railings have an arched lattice design with vertical posts with decorative castings. According to Mr. Holth, the railings were patented by Chester B. Albree, who had a company based in Pittsburgh, PA. Established in 1893, Albree’s railings were used extensively in western Pennsylvania and were common on many structures throughout the US. Yet it is unknown whether he installed the railings to this bridge when it was built four years later.

As mentioned in the previous post, John and David Snyder created the 217-acre park that featured a combination of forests, ponds and even a golf course in 1895, yet they endowed a bond worth $200,000 to ensure of the park’s upkeep and paid $25,000 for the construction of the bridge. It is unknown who was the bridge builder and whether Mr. Albree constructed the railings for the bridge, the entire structure itself or if he had nothing to do with it.

And this is where you are up. What do we know about the bridge? Feel free to comment in the section below. The same applies to the stone arch bridge that was posted a day ago. Your bridge matters and we look forward to hearing about it.

David Backlin photographed the bridge in 2018 when it was closed to vehicular traffic. Pedestrians and cyclists however can use the bridge.

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This was the last one in the series dedicated in memory of David Backlin. There will be more to come yet they will be integrated with those posted by the author and other bridgehunters and in its usual time slot of once a week on Mondays. We just want to showcase his work as a way of saying thank you for what you did as a bridge photographer and contributor. You will be missed.

Mystery Bridge Nr. 195: Anton’s Bridge

Our 195th Mystery Bridge has a pair of stories that accompany this salavaged and reused through truss bridge. The first one was my discovery of this site a quarter century ago. The other was the story of the restaurant. We’ll start with my visit first.

It was March 1998, and my college choir from Concordia College (Moorhead) was on tour through central Minnesota, enroute to Minneapolis and Rochester. St. Cloud was one of the stops on tour and we were travelling along Division Street in Waite Park. I had a nice seat on the left side of the coach when I saw a yellow-covered through truss bridge at Frontage Road. It was surrounded by trees yet I could see part of the truss structure. What I found strange and unusual about it was the fact that it was only a section that was saved and it only served as a gateway to somewhere behind the trees. It turns out that after saving the Route 66 Bird Creek Bridges in Catoosa, Oklahoma by reusing them as entry points at Rogers and Molly’s Landings, salvaging (at least a section of) the bridge has indeed become a norm and a reasonable alternative to demolishing a historic bridge altogether.

This bridge entrance was brought back up on the discussion table in social media recently and I figured the time is ripe to find out more about this structure. According to the information from the Stearns County Museum, this section at Anton’s came from a Camelback through truss bridge that once spanned Sauk River. Sauk River empties into the Mississippi River directly in St. Cloud, but not before passing Anton’s Restaurant and boat dock. The truss bridge had seven panels; its connections were riveted. The Howe portal bracings appear to have been the original. The build date behind the truss bridge is between 1915 and 1930, yet there is no information on the bridge builder. While the museum has pin-pointed the location of the bridge along the Sauk River, the question is where exactly was the bridge prior to its relocation to Anton’s.

Likewise is the date of the bridge’s replacement and the salvaging of this section also unknown. The bridge was most likely replaced during the 1980s, yet because of its historic significance and perhaps the its popularity among locals, a section of the bridge was salvaged and relocated to Anton’s, to be used as the entrance to the site. Why this was done and how this was done remains unknown, but when the section was saved, four truss panels, the portal and the upper portion of the strut bracing were saved, the rest- upper chord and a diagonal beam in the fourth panel were all scrapped.

This leads to the following questions regarding this bridge section at Anton’s:

  1. Where along the Sauk River did the bridge originate from?
  2. When was the bridge built and by whom?
  3. What were the dimensions of the original bridge?
  4. When was the bridge replaced?
  5. When was this section by Anton’s erected; by whom and why was this done?

To close off this Mystery Bridge article, we have the second story behind this bridge section. It has to do with the restaurant Anton’s itself. The restaurant was part of a series of wooden cabins and a lodge named Woodland Lodge, developed over a century ago. Mr. Brick’s was the name of the restaurant, and the owner had live entertainment for many decades. The restaurant was bought by Anton (Tony) Gaetz and his wife Lorraine in 1973 and that is where the name change took place. While live entertainment was discontinued in the 1980s, the restaurant at the same time offered a full menu to the customers. A lot has changed in the past 50 years, but Anton’s and its history- including the untold stories- has become one of the popular eating places in St. Cloud.

And now this pontist has another reason to add to the list- this Mystery Bridge! The untold story of how this piece got here, unless someone tries to crack the code! 🙂

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Website to Anton’s: https://www.antonsrestaurant.com/

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Special thanks to Carrie Shofner for the photos. 🙂

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Mystery Bridge Nr. 173: Caven Bridge in Jackson County, Iowa

All Photos Courtesy of Troy Knox of Bridging the Driftless

The next two mystery bridges will take us to Jackson County, Iowa, located in the far eastern portion of the state. There are two bridges that fellow pontist Troy Knox of Bridging the Driftless brought to the audience’s attention via his personal blog.

This is the first of them. The Caven Bridge was a single span Pratt through truss bridge that spanned the North Fork Maquoketa River on 60th Avenue north of Canton and Emeline. The bridge had a total length of 160 feet, 110 of which consisted of the truss span. Its portal bracing is A-frame but condensed vertically. Nothing is known about the date except sources had it down for 1900. Whether it was built in that year or a couple years earlier or later remain open. There is no information about the bridge builder, except bridges like this one, judging by its portals, may have been built by the Clinton Bridge and Iron Works Company. Yet there is no information as far as builder’s plaques or any inscriptions in the metal beams.

Portal bracing and tunnel view

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The reason why the information is in past tense is because the Caven Bridge no longer exists. According to information, crews tore down the bridge in November 2021, even though the bridge had been closed to traffic for some time. It is unlikely a replacement span will be built soon as the road is rarely used and the area is sparsely populated. Nevertheless, it would be a great closure to determine when exactly was the bridge built and by whom.

This is where you come in. Feel free to find and comment about this structure. After all your bridge matters. Thank you for your help and best of luck! 🙂

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Mystery Bridge Nr. 168: An Unusual Truss Bridge in Steinwerder

Photo taken by Jessica Schwartz for Hamburger Brücken

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In our next mystery bridge series, we head to the city of Hamburg. With over 2400 bridges in the Hafen City and German City-State of 1.5 million inhabitants, Hamburg has more bridges than Pittsburgh, more bridges than Venice and even more bridges than Germany’s capital of Berlin. Each bridge originates from not only a different district but also a different time era, which includes structures that had survived World War II. When visiting Hamburg, if you want to photograph the bridges, you either need to stay a month to get each and every single one of them, or visit the most famous of them.

There is a webpage that focuses on Hamburg’s bridges entitled Hamburger Brücken. The site features each of the city’s most prominent bridges as well as some fancy ones, many of them feature a unique design, let alone a unique history. You will find the links at the end of this article and some bridges from there will be featured here in the future.

This bridge caught my attention for many reasons. It’s a rather unusual through truss bridge that features an endpost that is half slanted-half vertical. Its portal bracing resembles that of a trio of bridges in Montana: The Fort Benton, the Forsyth and the now extant Fort Keogh:

Fort Keogh Bridge in Custer Co, Montana. Photo courtesy of HABS-HAER-HALS

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Though the bridge in Hamburg appears to have Pennsylvania truss design features like in the three aforementioned Montana crossings, it’s highly doubtful that any of William S. Hewett‘s relatives would make the trip overseas to Germany with the possible exception of fighting the Nazis in World War II and rebuilding Hamburg afterwards as the city became part of the British-controlled zone, which later consolidated with the Americans and French.

The bridge is located in Steinwerder, one of the districts in the center of Hamburg and used to span the Steinwerder Canal. The canal was 750-800 meters long and used to connect the north and south channels of the River Elbe. It was emptied and partially filled in in the 1990s. Since then, the bridge has been sitting on ground, fenced off and its future unknown. The canal was built after World War II which means the bridge dates back to that period, especially because of the thick metal beams and riveted connections.

The question is who built the bridge? When was it built? And what type of truss is this bridge? And lastly, is there a way to reuse the bridge? A discussion that can be made via Hamburger Brücken’s Instagram page. Otherwise, feel free to comment on the Chronicles via facebook or in the comment section. Some cool facts about this bridge would be quite useful and serve as an incentive to possibly save this unique structure.

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Hamburger Brücken webpages:

WP: https://hamburgsbruecken.wordpress.com/

LSBG: https://lsbg.hamburg.de/np-betrieb-unterhaltung/4394304/bruecken-portraet/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hamburger_bruecken/

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridges_in_Hamburg

Nord Story NDR: Mediathek

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Mystery Bridge Nr. 163: A Stone Arch Bridge in Winona?

Provided by Alex T. Dettman/ Negative converted by Chester Gehman, used with permission

Our first mystery bridge of 2022 takes us to Minnesota. A negative photo was brought to the attention at bridgehunter.com recently by Alex Dettmann, a resident of Minneapolis. It features a stone arch bridge of about 20 feet long, and according to the writing, the bridge was located on Mankato Avenue and was built by Fred H. Pickles. It took some Google Research to determine that Mankato Avenue was located in Winona, though he wasn’t sure that it was the right address because the present-day avenue ended at the riverside. The negative came from a collection dating between 1910 and 1920.

Source: bridgehunter.com

As soon as it was presented, a postcard with an arch bridge similar to this was found and posted on the same website by fellow pontist Luke Harden. According to information, it was located near Lake Winona, spanning Gilmore Creek. If the Mankato Avenue picture is correct, the bridge was located at the tip of the lake on the east end. Chances are likely because of only a couple crossings that exist over Gilmore Creek that the arch bridge at Mankato Avenue does indeed match.

In either case, we’re looking for information about the person responsible for building the stone arch bridge in Winona, Mr. Pickles. Most stone arch bridges in Minnesota were built between 1880 and 1900, including the famous Stone Arch Bridge in Minneapolis. What we would like to know is when this bridge was built, what type of stone was used for the crossing and from which quarry. Because Mankato Avenue has become a major throughway, it’s unlikely that the bridge no longer exists. However, even if it was replaced, when did this take place.

You can provide this information under this link in bridgehunter.com with comments and additional photos.

Link: http://bridgehunter.com/mn/winona/lake-winona/

Should there be any questions, contact Jason Smith here at the Chronicles who can help you.

Happy Bridgehunting folks and have a great start in 2022!

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2021 Bridgehunter Awards Notice:

Don’t forget! You have 15 days left to vote in the 2021 Bridgehunter Awards. If you haven’t done so yet, click on the links and submit your votes. Encourage others to vote. Spread the word. The more votes, the better.

Part 1: 2021 Bridgehunter Awards Voting Part 1: Best Bridge Photo

Part 2: 2021 Bridgehunter Awards Voting Ballot Part 2

Part 3: 2021 Bridgehunter Awards Part 3

Picture profiles on most of the candidates can be found on the Chronicles’ Instagram page by clicking here:

Link: https://www.instagram.com/bridgehunters_chronicles17/

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Mystery Bridge Nr. 159: The Stone Arch Bridge in Nineveh, Indiana:

Photo by Mike Daffron

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Following up on Sunday’s article on the Stone Arch Road Bridge is the mystery bridge located only 700 feet from the truss bridge. It’s a single span stone arch bridge spanning a branch of Nineveh Creek at the T-junction with County Highway 775 near the Atterbury Nature Preserves in Nineveh in Johnson County, Indiana. The bridge is no more than 40 feet and it had been rehabilitated just a few years ago.

The question behind this structure is when it was built and whether it was the same stone mason who built the stone abutments for the truss bridge. According to Satolli Glassmeyer, the stone abutments were constructed by James H. Pudney in 1885, Massilon Bridge Company later added the truss span in 1886. 

It is logical that Pudney may have also built the arch span at the same time, yet no records indicate this is true. This leads to the question of whether he built this stone arch bridge at the same time as the truss span or if someone else had the stone masonary experience to build the arch span and if so, when?

And with that, the question to the forum……..  Happy bridgehunting, folks!

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Mystery Bridge Nr. 157: The Oldest (and Unusual) Bridge in Husum, Germany

In Schleswig-Holstein, the oldest known bridge in the state can be found in the town of Schmalfeld in the district of Segeberg, located in the eastern part of the state. It was built in 1785 and was in service for 198 years before it was bypassed and converted into a bike trail crossing. It is one of only a handful of arch bridges that are known to exist in the northernmost state in Germany.

Source: Holger.Ellgaard, CC BY-SA 4.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0, via Wikimedia Commons

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Many arch bridges have gone unnoticed during the surveys of historic bridges in the last half decade, some of which deserve some sort of recognition.

The Schiffsbrücke in Husum is one of them. The bridge spans the Mühlenau at Zingeldamm near the Schiffsfahrtsmuseum (Museum of Shipping) and is the last crossing before the river empties into the harbor- right after the crossing. There’s next to no information on the bridge except for a couple dates to pass along to it. The first is in the picture above, which has a date of 1858 with the letter F on it.

Husum was part of the kingdom of Frisia, a region which stretched from southern Denmark, all the way to northeastern Netherlands, all along the North Sea coast and includes the islands in the Halligen region. The first known existence came in during the Roman Empire and it was once a regional powerhouse until the 16th Century, when it was split up. The German portion of Frisia, including Husum, became Uthlande, which later became part of Denmark until after the War of 1864, which resulted in German annexation. It is possible that given the Danish crown on the insignia, that Denmark had recognized Husum as Frisian, thus allowing for the language and culture to continue thriving. Yet we need more information to confirm these facts and to answer the question of why we have this insignia.

While the insignia states it was built in 1858, the informational board located on Zingeldamm stated otherwise, as it claimed that the bridge was built in 1871. Where the information came from is unknown but as original insignias on bridges are known to be the most reliable source of information to determine its construction date, there are two possibilities behind these two conflicting dates:

  1. The information is proven false because of a lack of records and thus historians may have assumed the date without taking a closer look at the bridge.
  2. The bridge may have been rebuilt after it was destroyed but the original brick railings, arch and insignia were retained and restored to provide a historic taste and conformity to Husum’s thriving city center and adjacent harbor.

Much of Husum survived unscathed during World War II as it used to serve as a naval port for the Nazis until its relocation to Flensburg in the district of Mürwik in 1943. Its only scar was a concentration camp near the town of Schwesing, where prisoners were used to build a wall to keep the waters of the North Sea out. The camp only existed for a few months in 1944, yet atrocities committed there could not be ignored and even an investigation into the camp took place in the 1960s. The city center, with its historic brick buildings dating back to the 17th century, has mainly remained in tact with only a couple minor alterations over the past 75 years, which means Husum has retained its historic architecture making it an attractive place to visit. The Schiffsbrücke represents that historic character that belongs to Husum’s past.

Unique feature of Schiffsbrücke is its wall. Husum lies on the North Sea coast and has its Flut and Ebbe (high and low tide). To keep the waters of the North Sea out of the Mühlenau, the wall is hoisted up to the keystone of the arch span. Because the Mühlenau is a “sweet water” river, this is done to protect the flora and fauna that exists in the river and are reliant on fresh water. Other than that feature, the bridge and its unique brick railings and insignia is one of the most unique and ornamental arch bridges in the state. Yet its mystery behind the construction date and the engineer behind the bridge and wall system makes it a bridge that one should research more on to find out its history.

And with that, it is your turn. What do you known about the Schiffsbrücke regarding its history, and which date would you lean towards- 1858 or 1871?

Feel free to place your comments on the Chronicles, either directly or via social media.

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Author’s Note:

This bridge article is in connection with a book project on the Bridges of Schleswig-Holstein that has restarted since the author’s return. Click here to look at the details and feel free to contribute some information on the project. Happy bridgehunting, folks. 🙂 ❤

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Mystery Bridge Nr. 156: A Pair of Twins in the former District of Schleswig

All photos taken in August 2021

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After a three-week absence due to vacation, I’m back online in the Chronicles, playing catch-up due to some bridge-related events that happened while I was away. But I thought I would show you some of the bridges I visited during my vacation, namely the former district of Schleswig.

This district featured a region where the northern half now belongs to Denmark; the southern half to the German state of Schleswig-Holstein and it extended as far south as the Baltic-North Sea Canal and as far north as the area between Kolding and Esbjerg and includes towns like Schleswig, Flensburg, Dagebüll, Husum and Kappeln on the German side, as well as Sonderburg, Hoyer, Abernaa, Haderslev and Ribe on the Danish side. The region was a focus of two military conflicts in 1851 and again in 1864, plus German conquest under Hitler from 1940 on, when the army invaded and occupied all of Denmark. The country was reestablished in 1945 when the war end. The region of Schleswig was cut in half thanks to a referendum in 1920, and the German-Danish border today is based on that historic vote, although minorities exist on both sides of the border. Flensburg is considered a border town with 30% of the Danish population living there- the highest for a community in Germany- even though it’s technically located in Germany.

And this takes us to this mystery bridge, which features not only one bridge, but two very identical structures located on the road connecting Aventoft in Germany and Tonder on the Danish side- only five kilometers apart. The bridges themselves span the River Vida- only a kilometer apart from each other!

The bridges themselves feature a cross between a Schwedler and a Parker pony truss span because of their polygonal upper chords. The connections are welded, which places the construction date to sometime between 1890 and 1920. There are no inscriptions in the metal of the bridge. They are between 25 and 30 meters long and have a width of 3.5 meters each.

What is unique about the bridges are its outriggers. These diagonal beams that are formed at a 70° angle and found on the outer portions of a truss bridge to support the panels and lower chords of the structure. The outriggers of this bridge is found at an 80° angle, but pointed towards the inner portion of the bridge. Furthermore these outriggers are filled in, thus making it one of the most unique truss bridges I’ve ever seen.

There is no information on the bridge’s history through any of the websites devoted to even architecture and infrastructure, nor are there any local records of the bridge’s history, even in Danish. The only websites that had a photo of the bridge was a Komoot website focusing on a tour along the German-Danish border and a fishing website looking at places where to fish in Denmark.

This is why the search for the bridges’ history falls to the locals on either side of the border. What we would like to know is the following:

  1. When were the bridges built?
  2. Who designed and built the two structures?
  3. What are the exact dimensions of the bridge
  4. Are there any stories behind the bridges? Since they are located right at the border, they played a key role in border controls and the like.

Do you have any stories, history and facts behind them? Then provide a comment below or send them to me, using the contact details provided here.

I’ve restarted my project to write about the bridges of Schleswig-Holstein and would like to add the bridges to the list of others that will be highlighted. If you are interested in contributing, feel free to do so. Details on my project can be found here.

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BHC Pic of the Week Nr. 150 Tribute to James Baughn

The 150th Pic of the Week is a bit fitting given the fact that it falls into the series paying tribute to James Baughn, let alone the time where we start saying our good-byes in one way or another. James’ memorial service was this past Sunday at Burfordville Mill and Covered Bridge in Missouri, with up to 175 people in attendance- family, friends, colleagues in the field of historic preservation and pontists. And those who couldn’t make it for various reasons, we had our minds focused on him and what he did for the community as we shared some memories of the event. Already plans for memorial bridgehunting tours in person are being considered, whereas the Chronicles has one of its own in the social media spectrum. If you are interested, click here to learn how.

James provided us with some very unique angles in bridge photography and this one is no exception. It’s a portal view of a through truss bridge with a steep cliff as a backdrop. This serves as a reminder of the McCaffrey Bridge in Winneshiek County in northeastern Iowa, yet there are three distinct differences:

  1. The portals of this bridge are different in contrast to the aforementioned structure
  2. The truss design is also different.
  3. This bridge no longer exist, whereas the Iowa structure still stands.

Nevertheless, such locations were useful in a way that it served as a notice to slow down while driving across, otherwise, something like this happens. Yet with the advancement of sleekness and speed, many of these bridges have given way to newer, more modern and straighter structures, where they are supposed to be safer, yet they are anything but that because of they encourage drivers to race across the bridge and they are ill-effective against floods. Even a 20-year old piece of concrete slab can be wiped out by floodwaters within a matter of minutes!

So with that in mind, our Guessing Quiz question is: Where is this bridge located? Any ideas? Feel free to submit your answers here or on the Chronicles’ facebook pages.

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And by the way, to answer the Guessing Quiz Question to last week’s pic taken by James Baughn, the answer is Madison County Iowa, near the Roseman Bridge. Info on that bridge can be found here.

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BHC Pic of the Week Nr. 146: Tribute to James Baughn

Photo taken by James Baughn
This is our 151st Mystery Bridge as well!

This week’s Pic of the Week James Baughn series takes us to Osage City and this unusual railroad bridge. The Osage City Railroad Bridge spans the Osage River in the town of Osage City at the site where Water Street is located on the west bank. The bridge features from west to east: one pony plate girder span, one riveted Pratt through truss bridge with vertical endposts and heel portal braces, and five pony plate girders. It is unknown when the bridge was built, yet records indicate that the this span was built reusing parts from a previous bridge. There are two reasons behind it- one that is physically present and one that is theoretical. The practical point falls in line with the through truss span. Judging by the connections between the endpost and the upper chords, it appears this bridge span was imported from another bridge- a rather large one, be it a swing bridge bascule bridge, or a deck truss bridge. The reasons are that the markings indicate that a truss span was cut out of the bridge and imported to this location to serve as high-clearance span and encourage ships to pass under that span. This would have to have been done as the river bed of the Osage River was at its lowest below the water level.

The theoretical standpoint of having a patchwork bridge span may have come by the owner’s pursuit of reusing spans from another bridge in order to cut costs of building a new span. That story takes us to the Booneville Railroad Bridge, which spans the Missouri River and features a vertical lift span. That bridge used to belong to Union Pacific Railroad (UP) which had purchased the Missouri-Kansas-Texas Railroad (a.k.a. KATY Lines) in 1988 after it went out of business. Before UP’s purchase of KATY, an agreement was made with the State of Missouri a year earlier to designate the entire line into a state park trail and the Booneville Bridge was part of the incorporation plans. Unfortunately, UP wanted to demolish the vertical lift span and take the five spans to Osage City for use at the crossing. After the plan was announced in 2004, and the Department of Natural Resources ceded ownership of the bridge to UP, Missouri Attorney General Jay Nixon sued the DNR and later UP for breaching the 1987 agreement. At the same time, a preservation group was formed, and the bridge was ultimately spared demolition. UP backed off from the bridge and decided to pursue another unused bridge for reuse, hence this truss span.

It is obvious that the truss span at the Osage City crossing came from another bridge. The question is when was this patchwork bridge built? And why was it built?

The irony behind the Osage City Bridge is that UP did build a brand new bridge alongside the truss span and the line is now two-tracked, meaning this patchwork bridge now has one way traffic. This happened in 2014. As UP was working to expand its network and cutomers, the modernization and widening of the tracks were a necessity to compete with the likes of Burlington Northern Santa Fe, Norfolk & Southern, Canadian Pacific and Southern Pacific, though I would give UP credit for its attempts of reusing the truss bridges for cost-cutting purposes. Not every bridge that is over a century old means it’s the end of the road and it must be demolished.  This is something that the likes of BNSF should consider, especially as they’re pursuing the demolition of a prized piece of historic artwork in Bismarck, North Dakota.

I bet Ralph Mojeski is turning over multiple times in his grave for that.

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